The Age Old Seven Debate: Love Her or Hate Her?

[KateJaneway]

I will admit she has some very cute wit..... (at least the writers do). Seven may not be my favorite character.... but I do NOT and will NEVER care for Jeri as a person. That being said, I can acknowledge that I do like Seven as a character.

(She's still not better than Janeway.)

Okay now I'm done.

[lauren05]

Wow, what a thread! I can't believe I never replied here...
I've got to say, Seven walking down a corridor in the ep "Raven" is the first scene of Trek I ever saw, so technically, she got me into Voyager.
So I may be a little biased.
I think, however, that the writers and Jeri did a great job with an awkward situation. I can't say I'd be able to come in with a cast that had been there three years and do what she did.
I admit there seemed to be an inordinate amount of focus on Seven/Jeri from "Scorpion" on, and a bit of ignoring of Janeway, which I don't agree with.
Anyway, I'm rambling...but I've concluded that the move to add Jeri to the cast was a good one. I just wish a few things had been done differently.
And that's my two cents

[*clairevoyagerfan*]

Meow!
can't believe i missed that convo.
I have no problem with Jeri Ryan or Seven whatsoever. I didnt like it when she began to hog most of the show. I do have a problem with people who voice insulting opinions without thinking.
Thankyou. *bows*

[captjamieway]

I like Seven as long as she stays far away from Chakotay.

[vanynessa]

Don't have a problem with Seven persay, but I definitely think she was way overdone and the boys of Voyager took a backseat. The show would have been fine without her, and no matter what anyone says, Kate was the true backbone of the show, Jeri was just a fun distraction. Overall, the Seven/Chakotay thing was a BAD, BAD, BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD choice, and I disappointed that they didn't persue her relationship with the Doctor. There's my 50 cents.

[elorie]

I don’t hate Seven, I do think that the character had a lot more potential than the One of Thirty-Six D in a catsuit that we got. The biggest problem with C/7 is that it came from left field and it ignored the years of UST (unresolved sexual tension) between Chakotay and Janeway.

And whether are not you liked the pairing of J/C, UST existed on the show, and the writers used it. Now UST is a great audience builder but when you do that you owe your audience a payoff and we not only didn’t get a payoff we got a slap in the face.

I really think that this ambivalence in the Seven character is the fault of the writer/producers of Voyager (known in some circles as The Idiots In Charge). Seven’s character has a lot in common with Wesley Crusher on TNG, both are “Mary Sue” characters aimed at a younger male audience.

As an aspiring writer I find the whole idea of character building interesting but the potential we saw in “Raven” and even in “Human Error” got lost. The sad thing is all that could have been salvaged except for a couple of scenes that appeared back to back in the last two episodes of Voyager, both involving the Doctor and Seven.

1. “Renaissance Man”

EMH: Seven.
SEVEN: You should remain still.
EMH: You have no idea how difficult it's been, hiding my true feelings all these years, averting my eyes during your regular maintenance exams. (goes down on his knees in front of her) I know you could never have the same feelings for me but I want you to know the truth. I love you, Seven.

2. “Endgame”

SEVEN: Do you remember three months ago, when my cortical node shut down?
EMH: How could I forget.
SEVEN: You said it might be possible to remove the fail-safe device that was causing the problem.
EMH: Has it been giving you trouble again?
SEVEN: No, but I've reconsidered your offer to extract it.
EMH: I've been hoping you would.
SEVEN: You said it would require several surgeries.
EMH: Actually, in anticipation of your change of heart, I've been studying the problem in more detail. I now believe I can reconfigure the microcircuitry with a single procedure. You'll be free to experience the full ranges of emotions. Everything from a hearty belly laugh to a good cry.
SEVEN: How soon can you do it?
EMH: Today, if you'd like.
SEVEN: My shift ends at eighteen hundred hours.
EMH: It's a date. Speaking of dates, once the fail-safe is gone, you'll be free to pursue more intimate relationships.
SEVEN: I'm aware of that.
EMH: If you decide you need help with that aspect of your humanity I'm always at your disposal.
SEVEN: I appreciate that.
EMH: Really?
SEVEN: Yes, but I already have all the help I need.
EMH: Ah, of course. You'll undoubtedly be running more simulations with the Chakotay hologram.
SEVEN: No, actually. I'll see you at eighteen hundred hours.

IMHO that is the point where the serious Seven hating started and it came not from the fact that Seven wanted Chakotay (heck a lot of us out here do) but rather with the treatment of the Doctor, because she had to know he loved her he had told her so in the previous episode and she simply blew him off. C/7 made the shippers angry but the producers also angered the fan base they were after, because the male adolescence fans were all pretty much Doctor fans.

Elorie

[lauren05]

Yeah, I agree with Jamie, Van, and Elorie.
What they did with Seven by the sixth and seventh seasons was a complete 180 from when she first came on. I never thought to compare her with Wesley Crusher either, but it does make sense.
As far as C/7 goes, it didn't seem to make any sense. There was nothing (at least not that I saw) going on between Chakotay and Seven. I always thought she would get together with the Doctor. If B&B were looking to suprise viewers, well, they did. But at the huge fault of making people angry and saying 'oh well' to everything that Janeway and Chakotay had been through together, and the Doc and Seven's relationship.

[Rowan]

Having never read an article by Jeri I have no real oppinion on her but I always thought she did a good job with a filler role. She did actually seem to try bring something other than t&a to the character Infinate Regress I think shows she has some talent. Unless it was all done in seperate takes switching from one personality to another like that is very difficult.

If she was brought in for the teen males why does she never seem to be at conventions, the playgrond of teen males?

There was a lot of scope for both Kes and Seven that wasn't used and there was absolutely no reason to get rid of one to bring in the other. except that B&B are cheap.

Also why did she never put clothes on on top of the cat suit?
yes I get that it was for her medical needs, I even get that it was for the male demographic but haven't these people heard of modesty? Has no one told them it's more interesting to keep some bits hidden.

two random thoughts...

elorie said:

I don’t hate Seven, I do think that the character had a lot more potential than the One of Thirty-Six D in a catsuit that we got. The biggest problem with C/7 is that it came from left field and it ignored the years of UST (unresolved sexual tension) between Chakotay and Janeway.

She can't be only a thirty-six D... I'd never look like that in a catsuit!

katejaneway said:

LOL!!!!

How you doin?

I actully had an ex-boyfriend that thought that that was a great turn on for us girls. I quickly disolusioned him and happily he is now a far away ex too. lol

[vanynessa]

elorie said:

I don’t hate Seven, I do think that the character had a lot more potential than the One of Thirty-Six D in a catsuit that we got. The biggest problem with C/7 is that it came from left field and it ignored the years of UST (unresolved sexual tension) between Chakotay and Janeway.

And whether are not you liked the pairing of J/C, UST existed on the show, and the writers used it. Now UST is a great audience builder but when you do that you owe your audience a payoff and we not only didn’t get a payoff we got a slap in the face.

I really think that this ambivalence in the Seven character is the fault of the writer/producers of Voyager (known in some circles as The Idiots In Charge). Seven’s character has a lot in common with Wesley Crusher on TNG, both are “Mary Sue” characters aimed at a younger male audience.

As an aspiring writer I find the whole idea of character building interesting but the potential we saw in “Raven” and even in “Human Error” got lost. The sad thing is all that could have been salvaged except for a couple of scenes that appeared back to back in the last two episodes of Voyager, both involving the Doctor and Seven.

1. “Renaissance Man”

EMH: Seven.
SEVEN: You should remain still.
EMH: You have no idea how difficult it's been, hiding my true feelings all these years, averting my eyes during your regular maintenance exams. (goes down on his knees in front of her) I know you could never have the same feelings for me but I want you to know the truth. I love you, Seven.

2. “Endgame”

SEVEN: Do you remember three months ago, when my cortical node shut down?
EMH: How could I forget.
SEVEN: You said it might be possible to remove the fail-safe device that was causing the problem.
EMH: Has it been giving you trouble again?
SEVEN: No, but I've reconsidered your offer to extract it.
EMH: I've been hoping you would.
SEVEN: You said it would require several surgeries.
EMH: Actually, in anticipation of your change of heart, I've been studying the problem in more detail. I now believe I can reconfigure the microcircuitry with a single procedure. You'll be free to experience the full ranges of emotions. Everything from a hearty belly laugh to a good cry.
SEVEN: How soon can you do it?
EMH: Today, if you'd like.
SEVEN: My shift ends at eighteen hundred hours.
EMH: It's a date. Speaking of dates, once the fail-safe is gone, you'll be free to pursue more intimate relationships.
SEVEN: I'm aware of that.
EMH: If you decide you need help with that aspect of your humanity I'm always at your disposal.
SEVEN: I appreciate that.
EMH: Really?
SEVEN: Yes, but I already have all the help I need.
EMH: Ah, of course. You'll undoubtedly be running more simulations with the Chakotay hologram.
SEVEN: No, actually. I'll see you at eighteen hundred hours.

IMHO that is the point where the serious Seven hating started and it came not from the fact that Seven wanted Chakotay (heck a lot of us out here do) but rather with the treatment of the Doctor, because she had to know he loved her he had told her so in the previous episode and she simply blew him off. C/7 made the shippers angry but the producers also angered the fan base they were after, because the male adolescence fans were all pretty much Doctor fans.

Elorie

I know!!! That's such a good point, Elorie!! Not only was I flaming mad about that whole C/7 left field thing, but then she treated the Doctor like crap!! That was just tooooo sad!!!

[Mara Wildman]

When you bring that up, Elorie, now I feel I can really join in on the convo! That's probably the only thing I hated about Seven; her getting with Chakotay and not the Doctor! Well, she and the Doctor didn't have to get together, but it was nice to have that possiblity in the air. *SPOILER WARNING!!* I loved it in the books "Homecoming" and "The Farther Shore" when the C/7 thing sorta vanished like the whole thing was just a fling. (I like to think of that part as being in the Star Trek cannon. )

But I personally don't think Chakotay belongs with anybody. Not on the show, at least. IDK, I'm not a big Chakotay fan at all. All the Chakotay episodes are boring. (Except I am sorta fond of The Fight, but that's mostly because of the Doctor's hilarious line in the hallucination about the damage punches can cause.) I guess that's why I'm not a J/C fan at all. It makes me shutter.... There have been some fan fic that I've started reading and as soon as it starts in J/C stuff I get outta there like there's a warp core breach imminent! There was a reunion fan fic I read once that I really liked, and there was a J/C thing, but it was nothing major and only that at the end Janeway had mentioned to someone that they'd gotten together. That didn't bother me. It's just all the stuff like "When he entered the room she felt her heart beating faster," or "When he came up from behind her and greeted the group, he gently put his hand on the small of her back. A chill went up her spine." *shutter*

Dang, I think this post should have gone in the "Obsession J/C" thread....

[vanynessa]

Ummmm, no. I don't think it needs to go there at all, lol. The JC thread is for JC lovers (no pun intented, haha!)
;D

This line that you posted:
"When he came up from behind her and greeted the group, he gently put his hand on the small of her back. A chill went up her spine."

That kicks ass; is it from a fanfic? Cause we'd love to read it!!



Oh, and we've read SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH "WORSE", AKA BETTER FOR US JCERS, HAHA!

( I kinda like the Fight, too Mara..........most people hate it.)

[elorie]

christei2 said:

There have been some fan fic that I've started reading and as soon as it starts in J/C stuff I get outta there like there's a warp core breach imminent! There was a reunion fan fic I read once that I really liked, and there was a J/C thing, but it was nothing major and only that at the end Janeway had mentioned to someone that they'd gotten together. That didn't bother me. It's just all the stuff like "When he entered the room she felt her heart beating faster," or "When he came up from behind her and greeted the group, he gently put his hand on the small of her back. A chill went up her spine." *shutter*

I understand that not everyone is into the J/C pairing, but what you have written here makes me wonder if it isn’t so much the J/C content of a story as it is the “romance” style of writing that most female fic writers use. Science Fiction for example is lean in its use of words while romance will not get off the ground without those phrases you are quoting (they are referred to as tags).

There once was a post on “God Awful Fan Fiction” asking why all fan fic was romance. And the truth is most of it is romance. It’s romance because most of it is produced by female writers, and it’s female readers that have made romance the biggest selling genre in commercial fiction too.

So your taste simply may not run to the romance style.

Elorie (and by the way if I haven’t said so I have romance writing aspirations.)

[Mara Wildman]

You have a good point, Elorie, but actually I love romance stories. That's actually what I write most often! I'm currently working on an ENT story that I started a long time ago. I never thought I'd add to it, but when I started reading it the other day I suddenly got inspiration. I finished a DS9 romance story a few years ago, but I'd never share it because it's embarrassing. (Mostly because of who the love interest is.) I call "Error" (the name of that story) my "practice" romance story. ;o)

But for the longest time I was pretty much neutral about the whole J/C thing. It wasn't until my brother scoffed at it that it dawned on me that I really didn't wanna see them together. It just increased when I started reading fan fic and stuff.

And Vanessa, I actually wrote that line. *shutter* ;o)

[katie2]

I AGREE WITH VANESSA..SEVEN WAS A FUN DISTRACTION FOR ALL OF LIKE 5 MINUTES.BUT THEN THE OTHER CHARACTERS ENDED UP TAKING A BACK SEAT AND THE SHOW BECAME ALL ABOUT SEVEN THIS AND SEVEN THAT.IF IT WASN'T FOR KATE,I WOULD OF QUIT WATCHING ALL TOGETHER!! AS FAR AS C7(WHICH MADE ME NEARLY TOSS MY COOKIES) NOPE..SORRY ..IT WAS ALL A VERY BAD DREAM!!! AND I PERSONALLY THINK BRAGA SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT BACK AND BEATEN TO A PULP WITH THOSE "CUTE XOXO STARBUCKS MUGS" THAT VANESSA AND TINA FOUND IN PORTLAND!!!

[vanynessa]

christei2 said:

And Vanessa, I actually wrote that line. *shutter* ;o)

LMAO!! We've got a closet J/Cer in the midst! Just give us time and some careful proding from KJ, hee hee.

Hey Mara, do you wanna Beta KJ's and my "modifications" to Virtual Voyager *evil grin*. We're trying to make certain scenes more *ahem; cough* "interesting". Muhahahaha!!!!!!